I’m honored to be featured in your Substack post! I really enjoyed our twitter exchange and I really look forward to reading more of what you post!
I too find myself in an odd, yet exciting ecclesiastical position. I’ve spent time as a confirmed Anglican, but now I am returning home to become an Associate Pastor at a Pentecostal church. I’m thrilled at the opportunity. I created my blog, “The Prayerbook Pentecostal” to reflect on my unique position. I look forward to reading more from you and I hope to connect further in the future!
I am for a reformed catholicity that is broad enough to include the continental reformed and Presbyterians, the Anglicans, and Congregationalists, but not the papists. And I’m not into the Anglo catholic stuff.
In the historical context of Woodbury, Connecticut, you are joining the established church.
As a former congregational pastor, CCCC, now attending a reformed episcopal church I’m trying to understand what you’re saying about the holy orders. How do you not now occupy the holy orders as pastor of the church? You are ordained the presbyter of that church. No? The Anglicans would recognize a congregational ordination as well.
When I was serving in the CCCC they came up front and I served communion similar to the way they do it in Anglicanism because that was the tradition of that particular church. (Though they did not kneel.)
All of what you say is true, but there’s a difference between overseeing and prelacy.
I don’t wear a ring. I don’t wear purple. I don’t have a cathedra from which I sit and teach in the place (and with the authority) of the apostles.
My calling is to First Church Woodbury and to First Church Woodbury only. If I resign or am removed, I no longer have a call.
When you’re ordained in holy orders in the apostolic succession, people speak of gaining “added grace” to “confect the sacraments.”
They speak of an indelible mark on the ordinand, a change in his ontology. At its extreme, the priest participates in a different and more exalted form of being than the layman.
I have people refer to me still as Father because they believe my ontology is different than theirs.
They would likely still receive communion from me because they would consider it valid, whereas they wouldn’t consider a typical Congregationalist communion valid.
It’s just a very different way of thinking about the ordained ministry.
I understand there’s a different way of looking at it, but some of this is just semantics and the rest of it is the way Episcopalians look at it. But Congregationalist ordination is viewed the same way by the Episcopalians. They would not re-ordain me if I seek to be in their communion in holy orders. (In my Church, the REC.) The indelible Mark from ordination in the congregational way is considered to be valid. My ordination is considered valid even though I no longer maintain any credentials. They would “regularize.” Being ordained in the congregational way gives me authority to administer the sacraments. Congregationalism has for the most part recognized the indelible mark and that’s why if you are in the CCCC and you don’t have a call you are still an ordained minister. You can be “at large” so to speak. Been there. if you go to another congregational Church, they do not re-ordain you. There was some debate on this historically there were some who thought you had to be re-ordained every time you become pastor of a different church I think maybe John Owen held that position but it’s not the majority View today.
Regarding apostolic authority in the beginning, Presbyter and bishop were the same thing, they only became separated by traditions over the passage of time as Jerome testifies. In my View apostolic succession of a chain of ordination is not required for apostolic authority. What is required is ordination, according to the rules of Christ in scripture by a church of him and holding to the apostolic teaching. That is your episcopal authority. That is true apostolic succession. And besides that, if someone wants to argue that you have to have a chain of hands being laid on one man to the next going back to the apostles, the Presbyterian or Congregational churches have that as much as the episcopal probably.
The bylaws and my covenant refer to me as the “settled minister.“ If I used the word “presbyter” at my church, I am not sure anyone would know what I meant. Even though the word presbyter means elder, the eldership (teaching or ruling) seems to have died out in New England congregationalism over two centuries ago. No one thinks of me as an elder. I’m simply the pastor.
I’ve only encountered the concept of “holy orders” in churches with an episcopal polity rooted in the apostolic succession. In my experience, “orders” are something that is made much of in the Anglican and Roman traditions, but I haven’t encountered it elsewhere. For instance, if I were to say to the deacons at my church that they were “in holy orders” and therefore “members of the clergy” I think they would balk.
I think you’re right, however, that taking the widest and most generous understanding of holy orders, as the settled minister and pastor, I still have orders, but not orders that are acknowledged by rights outside of the congregation that called me.
These are just different names for the same thing. The book of common prayer says “minister” for Presbyter. Yes, you have a right to exercise ministry anywhere outside of the local congregation. if you got your local Ministerial Alliance meeting or go preach another church and serve communion or preach in the park you are still a minister. You can wear your clericals if you want. The CCCC is going to give you a nationally recognized membership card that you can show anyone you want, Showing that you are an ordained minister. You can marry people, etc. you just don’t have any bishop over your head anymore. You are the bishop.
Pastor Jake,
I’m honored to be featured in your Substack post! I really enjoyed our twitter exchange and I really look forward to reading more of what you post!
I too find myself in an odd, yet exciting ecclesiastical position. I’ve spent time as a confirmed Anglican, but now I am returning home to become an Associate Pastor at a Pentecostal church. I’m thrilled at the opportunity. I created my blog, “The Prayerbook Pentecostal” to reflect on my unique position. I look forward to reading more from you and I hope to connect further in the future!
Likewise, Evan! Do you have a link to your blog? God bless you in your new ministry.
https://open.substack.com/pub/prayerbookpentecostal
Here you go! Blessings to you as well.
I am for a reformed catholicity that is broad enough to include the continental reformed and Presbyterians, the Anglicans, and Congregationalists, but not the papists. And I’m not into the Anglo catholic stuff.
We at First Church are very happy that the Almighty crossed our paths!
Merry Christmas and Happy 2025!
Thank you! It is great to be here.
In the historical context of Woodbury, Connecticut, you are joining the established church.
As a former congregational pastor, CCCC, now attending a reformed episcopal church I’m trying to understand what you’re saying about the holy orders. How do you not now occupy the holy orders as pastor of the church? You are ordained the presbyter of that church. No? The Anglicans would recognize a congregational ordination as well.
When I was serving in the CCCC they came up front and I served communion similar to the way they do it in Anglicanism because that was the tradition of that particular church. (Though they did not kneel.)
All of what you say is true, but there’s a difference between overseeing and prelacy.
I don’t wear a ring. I don’t wear purple. I don’t have a cathedra from which I sit and teach in the place (and with the authority) of the apostles.
My calling is to First Church Woodbury and to First Church Woodbury only. If I resign or am removed, I no longer have a call.
When you’re ordained in holy orders in the apostolic succession, people speak of gaining “added grace” to “confect the sacraments.”
They speak of an indelible mark on the ordinand, a change in his ontology. At its extreme, the priest participates in a different and more exalted form of being than the layman.
I have people refer to me still as Father because they believe my ontology is different than theirs.
They would likely still receive communion from me because they would consider it valid, whereas they wouldn’t consider a typical Congregationalist communion valid.
It’s just a very different way of thinking about the ordained ministry.
I understand there’s a different way of looking at it, but some of this is just semantics and the rest of it is the way Episcopalians look at it. But Congregationalist ordination is viewed the same way by the Episcopalians. They would not re-ordain me if I seek to be in their communion in holy orders. (In my Church, the REC.) The indelible Mark from ordination in the congregational way is considered to be valid. My ordination is considered valid even though I no longer maintain any credentials. They would “regularize.” Being ordained in the congregational way gives me authority to administer the sacraments. Congregationalism has for the most part recognized the indelible mark and that’s why if you are in the CCCC and you don’t have a call you are still an ordained minister. You can be “at large” so to speak. Been there. if you go to another congregational Church, they do not re-ordain you. There was some debate on this historically there were some who thought you had to be re-ordained every time you become pastor of a different church I think maybe John Owen held that position but it’s not the majority View today.
Regarding apostolic authority in the beginning, Presbyter and bishop were the same thing, they only became separated by traditions over the passage of time as Jerome testifies. In my View apostolic succession of a chain of ordination is not required for apostolic authority. What is required is ordination, according to the rules of Christ in scripture by a church of him and holding to the apostolic teaching. That is your episcopal authority. That is true apostolic succession. And besides that, if someone wants to argue that you have to have a chain of hands being laid on one man to the next going back to the apostles, the Presbyterian or Congregational churches have that as much as the episcopal probably.
The bylaws and my covenant refer to me as the “settled minister.“ If I used the word “presbyter” at my church, I am not sure anyone would know what I meant. Even though the word presbyter means elder, the eldership (teaching or ruling) seems to have died out in New England congregationalism over two centuries ago. No one thinks of me as an elder. I’m simply the pastor.
I’ve only encountered the concept of “holy orders” in churches with an episcopal polity rooted in the apostolic succession. In my experience, “orders” are something that is made much of in the Anglican and Roman traditions, but I haven’t encountered it elsewhere. For instance, if I were to say to the deacons at my church that they were “in holy orders” and therefore “members of the clergy” I think they would balk.
I think you’re right, however, that taking the widest and most generous understanding of holy orders, as the settled minister and pastor, I still have orders, but not orders that are acknowledged by rights outside of the congregation that called me.
These are just different names for the same thing. The book of common prayer says “minister” for Presbyter. Yes, you have a right to exercise ministry anywhere outside of the local congregation. if you got your local Ministerial Alliance meeting or go preach another church and serve communion or preach in the park you are still a minister. You can wear your clericals if you want. The CCCC is going to give you a nationally recognized membership card that you can show anyone you want, Showing that you are an ordained minister. You can marry people, etc. you just don’t have any bishop over your head anymore. You are the bishop.